On yesterday’s post, a very helpful commenter left me the following link: How Alcohol Abuse Can Lead to Sexual Assault & A Need For Alcohol Rehab. Now, alcohol abuse can lead to one of those two things. Let me give you a hint: it’s not sexual assault. For the millionth time: being drunk does not cause rape, nor does it mean that it’s somehow the girl’s fault. You know, that whole, “well, if she hadn’t gotten so drunk in the first place…” argument. But let’s look at this lovely article that my commenter linked me to, shall we?
Alcohol reduces a person’s inhibitions, making things such as sexual assault seem acceptable. Even those who normally would not force sex on a woman or man may do so when under the influence. When this happens, treatment for alcoholism is often sought out by the perpetrator, typically due to guilt and remorse.
No, a rapist is a rapist. Chances are, they may be more physically forceful when drunk, but I’m willing to bet that when sober, this is the same guy that’s going to use coercion, manipulation, and guilt to have sex with someone unwilling. Someone that wouldn’t rape someone sober isn’t going to magically change into ZOMG SCARY RAPIST when drunk. Nor are they going to suddenly realize that they have an alcohol problem and seek help because they feel guilty. I mean, that’s just laughable.
Intoxication in the victim may prevent them from stopping their attacker and avoiding risky situations. In order to prevent sexual assault due to alcohol abuse, alcohol rehab should be sought after. [...] When a victim of sexual abuse is under the influence they are more likely to engage in risky behavior and may have trouble protecting themselves when sexual acts are forced upon them.
If someone wants to rape me, the chances of me fighting them off while sober aren’t much higher than while drunk. And OMG “RISKY SITUATIONS” DO NOT CAUSE RAPE. And how is seeking rehab after my sexual assault going to prevent it?
And then, most helpfully, it gives me “Ways to Avoid Sexual Assault.” Shall we take a look at how I could have avoided being raped? Yes, let’s.
- Most cases of rape occur late at night. Avoid going out late at night, especially with people you aren’t familiar with.
- Date-rape drugs may be used to commit sexual assault. These drugs can easily be slipped into unattended drinks. Watch as the server mixes your drink and never leave your drink in an accessible spot alone.
- Many people who are sexually assaulted know the perpetrator (whether they are a relative, co-worker, acquaintance, or boyfriend/girlfriend). Always be on your guard, don’t assume someone won’t take advantage of you in a vulnerable state.
- Alcohol abuse is a common factor in sexual assault. Don’t drink so much that you cannot control yourself. If you must drink in excess, do so in the company of trusted friends.
- Most cases of sexual assault occur when the victim is alone. If you are going to be out at night and/or walking in an idle neighborhood, bring someone with you.
Know what all these tips have in common? They imply that somehow, the victim is responsible for their sexual assault because they were walking alone at night/too drunk/left their drink alone/too trusting of a friend/in a bad neighborhood/insert behavior here. And if they hadn’t been doing any of those things, they wouldn’t have been raped. But what about those girls that get raped during the day? Or while sober? Or in Beverly Hills? They did everything “right” and still got raped! So, pray tell, how is rape avoidable?
You want to know what causes rape? It’s not short skirts, flirty girls, dark streets, or keg parties. IT’S RAPISTS. Period. The end. Being less drunk will not stop someone intent on raping me from succeeding. So stop the fucking victim blaming. Because whether I was drunk or not, or dressed provocatively or not, or knew the perpetrator or not, it doesn’t fucking matter. NONE OF THOSE THINGS MAKE IT MY FAULT. Nothing could have prevented my rape except not being in the same room as a rapist. And GUESS WHAT? Rapists don’t walk around with a sign on their forehead that says, “CAUTION, I WILL RAPE YOU.” Therefore, there is no way for me to consciously avoid being in a room with a rapist, and therefore, *I* cannot somehow be responsible for preventing my rape.
So thank you, concern troll, but your advice is hogwash.
I'm Britni, a snarky bitch and generally awesome person. I write about sex, love, and bullshit. If sex-positivity, discussions about BDSM and kink, queer issues, and topics that are completely inappropriate by society's standards make you uncomfortable, then this blog is not for you.
Good Vibes 
114 Comments
wow
sorry I hit a nerve with you.
But by your post it is obvious it has triggered something.
You say over and over you are a counselor and you know whats best.
I see your counselor status and raise you:
http://www.casapalmera.com/about/staff/vikas-duvvuri.php
a Ph.D. in Neurosciences from Stanford University School of Medicine and an M.D. from UC San Diego School of Medicine. He completed a research-track Psychiatry residency from UC San Diego School of Medicine, where he was Chief Resident.
and
http://www.casapalmera.com/about/staff/aj-foster.php
A. J. Foster, MD has been a Family Practitioner for 30 years. He is Board Certified by the American Board of Family Practice and is Chairman of the Department of Family Medicine at Scripps Memorial Hospital of La Jolla. Dr. Foster provides general medical care to the patient population at Casa Palmera.
I dont want to pick a fight.
Really I don’t.
But you keep throwing your counselor status around like you are in the know so to speak.
If thats the case aren’t the above individuals more in the know?
And if you say no… isn’t denial one of the issues you also need to face in treatment?
Where the fuck do I throw my counselor status around? I almost NEVER mention it, especially when I talk about my own mental health or sexual assault. I don’t mention it once in this post. Nor do I mention it in my last post, and probably not in the one before that, really.
And yeah, you hit a nerve with me because I’m sick and tired of victim-blaming, and I don’t allow it on my blog. So if you post one more comment implying that somehow, I was at fault for being raped because I was drunk, you WILL be deleted.
And I’m not in denial about anything, but you are an idiotic prick who should keep his mouth shut.
And since you’re so keen on throwing links at me, might I suggest that you read some of the links that I put in my post? Because they’re much more intelligent than anything written on that piece of shit website you keep linking to.
if you even bothered reading through her blog, you’d notice she’s not in denial over a damn thing. britni openly discusses her need for treatment for sexual abuse and a desire to get better. social drinking has NOTHING to do with the price of beans in china, and your posts and links don’t either. i see your completely irrelevant links and raise you the swift kick in the nuts you obviously need. shut the fuck up.
Hey, Fuckwit? Can I call you Fuckwit? I guess asking that question doesn’t really matter since you clearly do not know how to read…
Rape apologists like yourself are the scourge of society so, please, do yourself and the rest of us a favor and go drink antifreeze.
Yay, I love bitchfest 2010!
“I Will Be Deleted” (LOLOLOL), I love how you conveniently ignored every single point Britni made in this post. Nice one, bro.
I think you both have valid arguments to make. Obviously I agree with Britni, but I don’t have a degree.
I’m no rape apologist, but I am curious how you would argue that the person who gets so drunk they can barely walk, stands just as much chance of fighting someone off as someone who is sober, or mildly tipsy? I’ve made friends that have told me stories about how they’d have to practically crawl home.
Knowing that there are people out there with intent to rape and harm, shouldn’t said person behave more responsibly?
From your article you sound very angry that ALL the points are regarding responsibility. They don’t all read that way to me. For instance looking after your drink is surely just sensible advice? It doesn’t infer blame whatsoever.
Any comment that starts “I’m no rape apologist, but…” clearly means that you’re going to make a rape apology.
I’m no rape apologist, but I am curious how you would argue that the person who gets so drunk they can barely walk, stands just as much chance of fighting someone off as someone who is sober, or mildly tipsy?
You’ve clearly never had the experience of Living While Female. I am a tiny person. My chances of fighting anyone off, sober OR drunk, especially if they have intent to assault me is slim to none.
Knowing that there are people out there with intent to rape and harm, shouldn’t said person behave more responsibly?
Is getting that drunk the best idea? No. Should someone be held responsible if they do happen to get raped while that drunk? NO.
For instance looking after your drink is surely just sensible advice? It doesn’t infer blame whatsoever.
Ah, but the blame lies in the off chance that I *do* have my drink drugged. Because then, somehow it’s my fault for not looking after my drink better.
The point is, there is NO EXCUSE for someone to be raped. NONE. And by saying that she should behave more responsibly or watch her drink, if something does happen to her, it implies that it’s at least partially her fault for not doing those things. But the only person who can be blamed in any way for the rape is the rapist.
This type of comment depresses me so much.
It makes me feel like whatever I do, as a woman, I will be blamed for it. And I can’t believe that therapy centre that refuses access to therapy for people who drink.
Britni, I’m sorry for what you are going through. I know you don’t want or need anyone’s pity, but it’s not pity-it’s commiseration.
I know you’ll find a place that will accept you and help you along.
Sa, I was not blaming anyone. Nor was I saying that someone who is drunk is responsible for being raped.
You’ve clearly never had the experience of Living While Female. I am a tiny person. My chances of fighting anyone off, sober OR drunk, especially if they have intent to assault me is slim to none.
and
Is getting that drunk the best idea? No. Should someone be held responsible if they do happen to get raped while that drunk? NO.
I can understand and accept that you may not be able to fight someone off, drunk or otherwise. However while you feel this way, others may not (highlights a weakness in “advice” giving to the varied masses).
I think the point was that the more drunk you are, the less of a fight you’ll be able to put up. I would always rather be involved in a scuffle completely sober than ANY degree of inebriation. I am far more aware of things around me when not drunk. Far more competent in my movements, running ability, reaction times to situations etc.
I don’t think they should have titled it as “Ways to avoid sexual assault” – I can understand why as a female you’d feel angry about this (I probably would too!) but there is no doubt that this singular tip is something to think about. Assault aside, people shouldn’t really be getting into extreme states of drunkeness (or at least learn from it the first time you do it
).
Ah, but the blame lies in the off chance that I *do* have my drink drugged. Because then, somehow it’s my fault for not looking after my drink better.
Again only if you read it that way and assume someone is blaming you. I see it as advice.
And by saying that she should behave more responsibly or watch her drink, if something does happen to her, it implies that it’s at least partially her fault for not doing those things.
I disagree. I can say that someone should not have been paralytic through drink or drugs when he/she was raped, without saying it was his/her fault (or that they were even slightly to blame for the attack). It is possible to make a statement of fact that he/she would have been able to resist more (to her benefit) if not under the influence.
But the only person who can be blamed in any way for the rape is the rapist.
I COMPLETELY agree.
Unfortunately some people (“rape apologists” is a term thrown around a lot) believe that females should do everything they can to reduce temptation in men and stop making themselves an “easy target”. Some of these people have such strong beliefs that any female acting in a way that doesn’t fit with their backward belief system is responsible (fully, or partially) for any harm done towards her. It’s sad that people like this exist..
Jon, the issue is this:
“Again only if you read it that way and assume someone is blaming you. I see it as advice. ”
The problem is that it IS seen as advice and people who don’t follow that “advice” and then get raped feel that they can’t press charges because they “deserved” to be raped because they didn’t take the “advice.” Then, later on, juries think that these people “deserved” to be raped because they didn’t listen to “advice” or use “common sense.”
You cannot say what you are saying (i.e. women shouldn’t get paralytic) WITHOUT it leading–culturally, psychologically, and judicially–to victim-blaming. You may think it is just advice, but its ideological repercussions are vast and occur in the Real World, where women are consistently blamed for their own rapes in the media, their families, the courts, and everywhere else.
Women are consistently blamed for their own rapes if they were drunk. Or if they were wearing the wrong clothing. Or if they’ve had sex ever. Or if they were alone in their own houses. Or if they virgins. Or if they were in a group. Do you start to see the problem?
alana makes an excellent point, that rape culture makes it so “we’re unable to have a conversation about personal precaution without it being conflated with victim blaming. ” But we can’t. And so when you bring up personal responsibility, you WILL BE engaged in victim blaming whether you wish it or not.
In this conversation, there is no such thing as mere advice. You say it’s only victim-blaming “if you read it that way.” I would like to argue–given the mountain of ideological crap that insists on victim-blaming as a god-given right–that there is no other way to read it. Britni cannot see what you say and think, “Hmm. Wow. He’s right! It’s all in how I look at it!” Because in our culture if a woman doesn’t follow your “advice” she will be blamed for her own rape. Actually, she’ll probably be blamed for her own rape at least to some extent whether she follows your “advice” or not.
I suggest you follow the links in the posting. The one on short skirts is particularly excellent, and neatly skewers the “common sense advice” that allows women who dress in an allegedly provocative manner to be ALSO blamed for their own rapes: “Ridiculously, Murray suggests that the way to cut down on short-skirt-related-rapes is to militantly reinforce the false connection between miniskirts and automatic sexual availability….The next generation of potential rapists will have to receive their social cues by eavesdropping on the advice we’re providing to the next generation of potential victims. This is what they’re hearing: If she’s wearing a short skirt, it’s not your fault when you rape her.”
Do you see the problem? Do you see why your “advice” is not just a matter of how I may read it? Do you see why anything you say about personal responsibility will just roll on down that slippery slope and plop right into the cesspool that is victim-blaming?
Because if you see these things, then you’re doing a-okay. And if you don’t see these things then you are, in fact, a rape apologist and you should immediately stop reading this blog and move over to the “bitch had it coming” genre that undoubtedly exists on the internet.
And if you don’t see these things then you are, in fact, a rape apologist and you should immediately stop reading this blog and move over to the “bitch had it coming” genre that undoubtedly exists on the internet.
Oh come on. This is ridiculous and unnecessary (and bad rhetoric for that matter). Just because I may not agree with you, doesn’t mean I think “the bitch had it coming”. That’s polarising the issue entirely and pigeon holing me / people.
The problem is that it IS seen as advice and people who don’t follow that “advice” and then get raped feel that they can’t press charges because they “deserved” to be raped because they didn’t take the “advice.” Then, later on, juries think that these people “deserved” to be raped because they didn’t listen to “advice” or use “common sense.”
You cannot say what you are saying (i.e. women shouldn’t get paralytic) WITHOUT it leading–culturally, psychologically, and judicially–to victim-blaming. You may think it is just advice, but its ideological repercussions are vast and occur in the Real World, where women are consistently blamed for their own rapes in the media, their families, the courts, and everywhere else.
I understand what you are saying. I understand that from advice some simple minded people may draw the easy conclusion “If she broke rule x, she is at fault”, but that is unavoidable. We cannot however abandon giving sensible advice.
It is sad reality but as many are starting to chirp up, they also see these as pointers to help reduce (NOT ELIMIATE) risk.
The wording of some articles does make it sound as though rape is entirely within a woman’s control. This is wrong on all levels, and MUST stop. These are responsible for the tension Alana and advisor54 mention.
“Do you see the problem? Do you see why your “advice” is not just a matter of how I may read it? Do you see why anything you say about personal responsibility will just roll on down that slippery slope and plop right into the cesspool that is victim-blaming?”
You disagree with me, fine. But if you seriously cannot understand why your “advice” is not just a matter of how I may read it, and if you cannot understand what I am saying above then you either a. live underwater, b. never read anything, c. do not live in the same society I do, or d. have no ability to put yourself in someone else’s shoes.
What I am saying is that telling women to be “safe” is pigeonholing and that MOST people are “simple-minded” and that as a culture we DO blame women for their rapes. If you are not aware that women are routinely and continually blamed for their own rapes, then, seriously, you must live underwater or never read. Let’s start simply, shall we? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape#Victim_blaming
I understand what victim blame is. Stop being so patronising and smug – it does not aid the discussion and it makes you look like you think you’re so superior to everyone else.
Are you arguing for advice on how to be safe to be removed entirely from the discussion on rape? (because you think it will always result in “roll on down that slippery slope and plop right into the cesspool that is victim-blaming”)? I’m just trying to figure out what you feel on this issue – you’ve attacked it entirely in some posts, yet seem to have had a more balanced view in a reply to SarahBear.
Feel free to post another list of how I must not really even exist if I don’t see your point of view if you must.
Telling me that my world is “horrid” and ordering me to stop being “cynical” is patronizing and smug and does not aid the discussion. Also, I don’t think I am superior to everyone else. I do, however, think I am superior to you, precisely because you are trying to narratize my internal mindspace and I find that creepy and weird.
That was a genuine sorry from me because it must be horrible to feel that way! Why would you think that I was telling you how you feel etc. It was an attempt at empathy, not a pity party for you jeez.
It was not the same as your making lists about my lack of existence.
You didn’t answer my question on where you stand regarding removing discussion on safety entirely from the discussion of rape.
I’ll try to be nice when saying this, but honestly, no woman needs to hear the advice because we’ve been getting it since we can remember. The drinking and going out stuff starts a bit later, but believe me, this shit gets POUNDED into our heads before we are ten. We don’t need advice.
Isn’t it foolish to assume that men will behave themselves in a civilized manner at all times? Yes, a rapist is always 100% responsible for his (or in very rare cases her) own actions, but that doesn’t mean that women and girls should willingly place themselves at risk. It isn’t fair that you should have to drink only with people you know and trust, it isn’t fair that you should have to be on guard for someone drugging your drink, but it not being fair doesn’t make you any less at risk. Take for example the case in Richmond, California where a 15 year old girl was gang raped after Homecoming. Were her attackers completely responsible for their actions? Yes, without a doubt. But, at the same time she could have used more common sense in not going into a secluded area with a large group of males she really didn’t know. I guess my point is you can’t just assume all men are going to act like decent human beings.
Do you know how to read, AL? Did the comment DIRECTLY ABOVE YOUR OWN make no impression at all? Here, I’ll quote it: “I’ll try to be nice when saying this, but honestly, no woman needs to hear the advice because we’ve been getting it since we can remember. The drinking and going out stuff starts a bit later, but believe me, this shit gets POUNDED into our heads before we are ten. We don’t need advice.”
You assume you just to get come to a conversation and say whatever the fuck you want without bothering to read or think about what all the people who have been having this conversation months ago have written. Your comment is identical to several comments already posted. The tone and content of your comment has been wearily debunked as Really Really Not Helpful. There was no point in making it.
Ah, the Just World Fallacy strikes again…
Not you, Britni. Them.
This was an awesome link. Thanks
I hate rape culture for a shit ton of reasons, but I particularly hate how rape culture makes it so we’re unable to have a conversation about personal precaution without it being conflated with victim blaming.
Here’s the thing, it is not in a person’s best interest to get so inebriated that they are unable to walk/talk for a bunch of reasons. Anyone who ever tries to say otherwise is being ridiculous (though I am not saying anyone is saying that now). Does this mean that if a person gets attacked or assaulted while drinking/drunk that they deserved it? Of course not. But precaution and blame are not the same thing. Even if a playboy bunny stumbled around a dark lit alley carrying a bottle of liqueur buck ass naked, she still isn’t to blame for someone else, who probably isn’t drunk, making the decision to violate her (but that also doesn’t make the woman’s decision a good one either). Unfortunately, because of rape culture we can’t have any conversations about these sorts of precautions without it being twisted around into some sort of validation of why every person but rapists are to blame for people being raped. Personal responsibility only goes so far when you’re with a rapist.
I also think there is a big difference between warning people of certain dangers (like having your drink drugged) and look backwards in order to rationalize why someone must have deserved being raped. In my situation, there is a very good chance I wouldn’t have been raped if I hadn’t been drunk. (And I don’t say this lightly.) Does that mean I deserved what happened? Of course not. My point is only that the circumstances that lead up to me, or anyone, being raped can be a useful tool in informing potential rape victims of the many guises and circumstances of rape. But whenever we focus too much on the behavior of a rape victim, I think there’s good reason to stop and consider why we focus so much on the victim’s choices and not the rapists. That’s rape culture in its finest. I’m sure the people who wrote this article or the person above really do want to keep women safe, but this is really not the way to do so.
This x1000.
Is a rapist completely to blame for raping someone? Hell fucking yes. Should it be the responsibility of the rapist, not the victim, to change their behavior? Hell fucking yes. Do we live in a perfect world where this is going to happen? Probably not.
Would you rather be right or safe? That’s what you have to ask yourself. You can be right all day long and still be raped. We owe it to ourselves, our sisters, our mothers and daughters to do what we are capable of doing to keep ourselves safe, to protect ourselves from rapists and predators. Analyzing behaviors that commonly happen prior to rapes and not doing those behaviors (or telling other women to not do those behaviors) is not victim blaming. It’s being realistic. In a perfect world rapists would not rape and we could do whatever we wanted to do without having to worry about it. But we don’t live in a perfect world so we have to act accordingly. Indignantly throwing the ‘YOU’RE A VICTIM BLAMER!!!1′ phrase around is doing nothing but putting a halt to what could be a very educational discussion. At some point we’ve got to take off the feminist blinders and expand the discussion. It’s not empowering to continue repeating the same tired argument while women continue to be raped when we could be arming them to protect themselves against predators.
An ounce of prevention… ya know?
You can also be “safe” all day long and still be raped. But if I am “safe” and I get raped, and it goes to trial, then the defense will find SOME way to blame my behavior NO MATTER WHAT I DO OR DID. That is the issue.
Say I never go out, don’t drink, don’t invite strange men over, and still my boyfriend rapes me. If that goes to trial, the fact that I willingly had sex with that person repeatedly will mean that the chances of him being convicted of raping me is negligible. It’ll still be my fault, even though I was safe and normative and had a boyfriend and everything.
Say I never go out, don’t drink, don’t invite strange men over, but one day a guy gets into my house and rapes me. If that goes to trial, the fact that I left the window unlocked that one time will lower the chances of conviction. Also, the fact that I’ve had sex in the past, willingly will be brought up as proof that I’m not “pure” and so being raped wasn’t a big deal. The fact that I have a mental illness would undoubtedly be brought up. And if I didn’t fight back as effectively as the jury thinks I should have, then that will be an issue, too.
Being “safe” is not going to keep me from being raped. Nor is it going to keep me from being blamed if I do get raped. So, I think we need to turn the question on its head and quit asking what potential victims need to do to avoid their own rapes, and ask instead what the hell our culture is doing as a whole to make rape unacceptable. Because blaming me, no matter how “safe” I have been? That’s not helpful. Nor is curtailing the civil rights of women, by explaining to them that they don’t live in a perfect world and should be “safe” instead of right.
It’s not an either or situation, Blaize. You can make decisions to protect yourself and be safe AND we can educate people on how even when women don’t make those choices they aren’t to blame. This situation, like all situations, is not black and white. Of course women can still be raped, even when they are careful. It happens all the time. I don’t believe that anyone is trying to suggest such things are not true.
Why do we bother installing alarm systems and locking our homes and vehicles? Even when we do take precautions to protect our valuables robbers and thieves still break into our cars and our homes and steal them. Should we give up completely, throwing caution into the wind, and just say ‘Well, those robbers need to stop robbing. I’m not going to lock my front door at night anymore.’? It’s really the same precedent here, except it’s your body and it should be far more important to you to protect your body than the things inside of your home that can be replaced.
Your analogy is false. If you are robbed, you will not be blamed for having owned objects. If you are raped, you WILL be blamed for having been a woman and thus “asking for it.”
The issue is not locking doors or not locking doors, or drinking or not drinking, or even being “safe” while trying to educate people. The issue is that the mantra that women should be “safe” overwhelms the conversation, and leads to a society where the civil rights of women are curtailed or self-curtailed. The mantra that women should be “safe” DOESN’T lead to conversations about how to raise boys to not be rapists.
We, as a culture, have a real aversion to nuanced thought. You, personally, might be capable of it, and might be able to take precautions while trying to educate people. But as a whole, the conversation is all about how women should curtail their activities, and not about how rape can be minimized. The burden is left to the victims, and that is not in my mind productive.
I think you’re not giving people enough credit. I am not the only person on this entire planet who is capable of multitasking.
Did you know that if a robber hurts themselves while they’re robbing your house that they can sue you in some states? Yes, and your home owners insurance will be responsible for covering their medical bills and your premiums will be raised.
Same thing goes for car insurance. If someone breaks into your car and steals your stuff you will be forced to pay a deductible and your premiums will go up. You might even be dropped. It’s not fair, but it’s the way things are. How is that different than being blamed for your own rape? You’re still being held responsible for the actions of another person.
We can sit here until we’re blue in the face talking about how wrong raping, robbing and murder are but it’s not going to change the fact that there are rapists, robbers and murderers in the world. So I ask again, do you want to be right or do you want to make an effort to be safe? If you’d rather be right then more power to you, but I’m going to teach my children right from wrong AND show them how they can protect themselves from predators.
Is the “person above” me? I thought that we agreed exactly. I can’t understand how people managed to draw a conclusion that I was placing blame with a rape victim from my first post. Crazy!
No I meant the first comment (though who knows with that person).
Yes. There is a HUGE difference between advising women to take precautions and blaming them for being raped. Are you more likely to have your inhibitions lowered & think a course of action is ok when you’re drunk than you would when you’re sober? Yes. Impairment of judgement is one of the proven effects of alcohol. Will following all of these precautions insure that you will NEVER be raped? Of course not, rapists can and will strike wherever and whenever they can. But taking precautions can help avoid dangerous situations and anyone who argues that fact is, to use Alana’s word, ridiculous. It’s also ridiculous to villianize people who advocate precaution by calling them a ‘rape apologist’ or a ‘victim blamer.’ Are there people who advocate precaution that ALSO blame the victim? Yes. But advocating precaution and blaming a rape victim are two wholly different things.
Brit.
It is never right to blame the victim. Period.
I have multiple degrees.
but what I am really writing about to say is that I suggest you look on this website: http://www.emdria.org to find an EMDR certified therapist in your area. They are typically expert in dealing with trauma, most certainly including rape, using a method that should eliminate nightmares and flashbacks. I use the method with trauma victims from the Military (PTSD) and it works very well. The method does not involve retraumatizing by talking about every detail.
Ric
Thanks. I use EMDR with many of my clients as well, so I know how it works and what it is.
Hi- long time voyeur but first time commenter!
People are such fuckwits when it comes to rape- no one goes around shouting ‘Can someone please rape me right fucking now?’ yet when someone gets drunk they some kind of responsiblity if the absolute lowest of the low decides to take advantage? Nuh uh, sorry. That’s utter bullshit. Granted getting so plastered that you can barely stand up is a little silly because lots of dangerous shit can happen (ie I know a girl who’s gotten into fights and woken up on ants nests) but still, rapists are the only ones who should be blamed for rapes, not alcohol or any other bloody thing.
Sorry there are ignorant tools out there. I wish you all the best in your healing process (no wankery intended, even though a less-wanky choice of words wasn’t available, haha).
xx MM
In no way, shape or form should a person be blamed for their rape. Ever.
What should we do? Avoid anything that could possibly increase our likelihoods of getting raped? In that case, I’m just going to lock myself in a closet for the rest of my life. Because going out of the closet increases my chances of getting raped, right? Women shouldn’t be able to enjoy their lives at all because that puts us at a greater risk. Obviously.
No-one is saying those things listed out and out CAUSE rape.
But it’s true that if you avoid those situations, the chances of being raped goes down.
If you have your wits about you, are with people you can completely trust and in public spaces in good lighting, the chance of you being raped is much lower than when you’re stumbling about with complete strangers at night.
And if you really cannot tell this and think both situations are the same, that IS being illogically defensive.
Yes, your chances of fighting off a rapist are low anyway, but that’s not he point – the point is when rapists feel at their comfiest striking. Which is at night-time, when the girl isn’t acting in her right mind: when they are most likely to get away with it.
No-one is blaming you. At all. What we’re telling you is: “If you in the sea with a bag of raw meat, you have a higher chance of being eaten by a shark”. Not the best analogy, but one that most militant feminists don’t seem to realise.
Yes. Rapists are cunts. Yes. it’s no-one’s fault but theirs. But playing it safe is not admitting defeat or letting them win. It’s simply just that: Being safer.
Exactly! It is sensible to be safe and reduce risk.
Purely here to play a little devil’s advocate
I don’t think anyone is saying that you should not have fun, are they? There is a difference between having fun and getting obliterated on drink/drugs.
Assuming that people like these do exist, I would hazard a guess that there is a big difference between the author of the original article, and these “people”. Are there articles out there on the internet by people who are as extreme as those you suggest exist here? Those who say you shouldn’t drink at all, or shouldn’t have any fun? I’d be interested to know if there are.
In all seriousness, based on the original article there seems to be a lot of anger and outrage over relatively little. Where are these people? I would reserve such anger until you find a website with someone claiming such extremes
p.s. much of the original article is bullshit (agreeing with the blog owner)
These “people” are on juries, who listen to the defense blame the victim, and then fail to convict. This failure happens with shocking regularity, and is often based on the perception that the victim somehow had it coming. Because she left the house. Or didn’t fight back enough. Or wore some article of clothing. Or has had sex in the past, ever. Or has never had sex in the past and is thus categorized as a “tease.” Or was a sex worker. Or was married. Or wasn’t married and so clearly was an unfit woman who needed to be taught a lesson. Or was a lesbian who deserved corrective rape.
All of these “reasons” have led juries to fail to convict rapists. And all of that lack of conviction and victim-blaming and shaming has led to victims being unwilling to report their rapes or pursue justice. So, the people who say that women can’t have any fun at all? That’s where those “people” are, and that’s why your attempt to play devil’s advocate is going over like a lead balloon.
You didn’t answer my question as to where these people were? In juries who don’t convict every single rapist?
Can I ask if you believe that all cases that end up in court are legit? That is to say, the rapist did indeed rape the female and that she isn’t lying? Do not take this the wrong way. I wonder if you believe there can be 100% accuracy in a rape claim that ends up in court.
I’d also like to ask for some statistics, or links to cases that support:
These “people” are on juries, who listen to the defense blame the victim, and then fail to convict. This failure happens with shocking regularity, and is often based on the perception that the victim somehow had it coming. Because she left the house. Or didn’t fight back enough. Or wore some article of clothing. Or has had sex in the past, ever. Or has never had sex in the past and is thus categorized as a “tease.” Or was a sex worker. Or was married. Or wasn’t married and so clearly was an unfit woman who needed to be taught a lesson. Or was a lesbian who deserved corrective rape.
There are MANY statistics that back up this claim. I’ll find them for you. Also, false reports are much more rare than people want you to believe. The reason we’re often told that false reports are so common is exactly that: they want people to doubt victims.
Also I guess, a news story about a woman falsely accusing someone of rape (*omg scandal*) is more likely to be read than “just another rape story”.
I agree wit Alana that the high level of tension around this topic makes it extremely difficult to discuss without getting yelled at, and taking things to the illogical extreme of locking yourself in the closet doesn’t advance the discussion either.
As a father of two growing women and a spouse to one adult, sexual assault is a concern for me and I am extremely protective of all of the women in my life.
As my daughters get older and are on their own more, we talk a lot about responsible behavior, social interactions, potential dangers, and the realities of being a woman. Part of that discussion is, and will be, what they can do to reduce the likelihood of being assaulted. Just as I, as a man, take precautions when I am out alone at night in unknown areas because of business travel, I expect my daughters to take similar precautions where ever they are.
I will give much of the same advice to my daughters as is being attacked in the post.
1 – Never take in anything in a quantity that impairs your judgment.
2 – Always be aware of where you are, who you are with, and what is happening around you.
3 – Make sure we (parents) or a friend, knows your plans for the night.
4 – Avoid being alone with people you do not know and trust.
5 – If a man is acting aggressive, is ignoring your answers (No means No), or is behaving inappropriately, enlist help in getting out of the situation, or removing HIM from the situation as soon as possible.
6 – Remember that you are responsible for enhancing your own safety and it is better to leave a situation if you feel it is unsafe or may become unsafe. There will always be other parties, other boys, and better friends around the corner.
7 – Remember the fundamental laws of the universe (1) Men want sex; (2) Men want sex now; and (3) the LA Clippers will always suck.
8 – Remember, that unfair as it may seem, people will always make assumptions based on the way you are dressed. Dress like a slut, they will assume you are one. Dress like a gang-banger, the will think you are (or want to be) one, dress right for the occasion, and they will think you know what you are doing.
No amount of political correctness will change the fact that women must take extra precautions to REDUCE the likelihood of assault.
Is this fair? No
Is this depressing? Yes
But we must not be stopped from discussing this. Preparing women with awareness, defensive tools, advanced planning, and practical knowledge DOES NOT BLAME them, it prepares them and protects them in many cases.
Does it always work? Unfortunately not, just like looking my house at night will not deter the determined thief, but I’m an idiot if I don’t lock it in the first place.
If you are burgled, the fact that you own objects will not be held against you by a jury. If a woman is raped, the fact that she owns a vagina will, in fact, be held against her. Because no matter how cautious your daughters are, if they get raped, then the defense will find some way to blame them for their own rapes, and juries will believe that bullshit.
Parents who have daughters generally teach them how to allegedly be safe. Parents who have sons are evidently doing a crap job teaching them how to not be predators. Pointing out that telling women to be safe is a shuck and jive in not “political correctness.” Rather, it an attempt to open the conversation up and ask why women need to be “safe” when a. being safe won’t save them, and b. having been “safe” won’t assure that their rapists are convicted. It is an attempt to examine our culture as a whole, which spends so much time policing the behavior of girls and women, and so little time raising men not to be predators.
If you do not believe that the message is “women=natural victims/men=natural predators” and that both women AND MEN internalize these messages, then you have not been watching movies, listening to music, reading magazines, surfing the internet, or living in the same world I do.
Blaize, you are articulating beautifully everything I want to say but can’t because this stuff makes me so upset that the language centers in my brain shut off.
I’m glad I’m making sense to someone.
Oh, you’re making plenty of sense to me. In fact, I just tweeted it!
I’m really glad.
If you are burgled, the fact that you own objects will not be held against you by a jury. If a woman is raped, the fact that she owns a vagina will, in fact, be held against her. Because no matter how cautious your daughters are, if they get raped, then the defense will find some way to blame them for their own rapes, and juries will believe that bullshit.
Wow. It must really be horrible to believe that. I’m sorry that you feel that way. Society must be a horrid place to live in for you.
Do you have any links to any legal cases where this has happened?
You must have your head in the sand to NOT believe that. That’s a defense attorney’s JOB. To make people doubt that the rapist is a rapist and blame it on the victim. Here, read this. It’s really enlightening for those of you that think the criminal justice system is any help to victims.
Right.
I would think (I don’t know, obviously) that many do not actually believe what they argue for in court. However I agree completely that it is possible they can have a negative effect on the way we view women who lose genuine rape cases.
Thanks for the link. Reading now, although the initial sentence is rather subjective and may have cut off discussion
But she has links to back up every point that she makes.
the justice system was not set up to “help” victims, it was set-up to determine the truth. While it fails in that mission at times, it succeeds more often than it fails.
That’s hilarious. You might want to try talking to an actual rape victim. Or anyone who is black. Or poor.
You’re, kidding, right advizor? Tell me you are joking. The criminal justice system does nothing other than criminalize those who are not normative and white. All it takes is taking a basic sociology class in college to know that. The criminal justice system will arrest a minority far more quickly than it will someone who is white for the exact same crime. The so-called justice system takes society’s prejudices and puts them in prison.
First, my life is just fine, but thanks for telling me what my world is like. Nothing is more heart-warming than having some guy articulate my internal experience for me!
Second, it is not a matter of how I “feel” and you live in the same world I do, even if you are blind to it. I will provide links momentarily, but only if you’ll actually read them and, oh, I don’t know, potentially reevaluate your point of view.
and, oh, I don’t know, potentially reevaluate your point of view.
Stop it please. Stop being so cynical.
Why don’t you please stop telling me how I feel and quit ordering me around? I am not cynical. You are NOT listening, and clearly do not know much about the subject. Outspoken Clitic suggests that you do some unbiased research of your own and then get back to us. I second that suggestion.
Hey guys, I’ve almost got BINGO . Anyone else close?
Rather, it an attempt to open the conversation up and ask why women need to be “safe” when a. being safe won’t save them, and b. having been “safe” won’t assure that their rapists are convicted.
Being safe MAY help, actually. Not always, but the fact that is may makes it worthy of discussion.
Why not talk about things that MAY help, but also why women need to be safe?
Unfortunately snippets of text and sound bites are easier to digest for most than a real intellectual discussion on culture and society.
“Why not talk about things that MAY help, but also why women need to be safe?”
Why not, indeed? This comment indicates that you do not understand what I am saying, or are ignoring what I am saying in order to reiterate the “be safe be safe” saw.
Go back. Read what I’m saying. I’m trying to tell you why talking about women being “safe” is unproductive. I’m not saying women shouldn’t avoid risk, just that the default position, that women being “safe” will minimize rape is SHITTY and STUPID and that talking about it is ANNOYING and we should all TRY HARDER.
Bring both to the table. I do understand what you are saying.
If, rather than starting by attacking people who are trying to give advice or suggest possible precautions (please note, I believe there is a distinction between some people genuinely wanting to help and those looking to place blame), you started with:
The issue is that the mantra that women should be “safe” overwhelms the conversation, and leads to a society where the civil rights of women are curtailed or self-curtailed.
… I think you’d have far less arguments! That to me was your best sentence and sums things up very well.
Kay, John, here’s the thing. Why don’t you go “be safe” from getting killed. Why don’t you go try to “be safe” from an earthquake? Go “be safe” from getting the flu.
Being safe is not going to help solve the problem, because apparently “being safe” is only supposed to work for rape victims, because they are the only ones being told that. It is an idiotic fallacy that only women should have to “be safe” don’t you think?
Jon, the rape conviction rate is a matter of easily accessible statistics. Also accessible are the arguments defense counsels use to strip victims of their legitimacy (see: every high-profile rape case EVER). It is not our job to educate you. You are the one refusing to see what’s in front of your face, and you are the one preventing intelligent conversation from happening. Do a little unbiased research of your own and get back to us.
I always like this easy to understand image of rape conviction statistics. (It’s from RAINN).
Shocking if true (I believe it is)
Are these statistics available on a government website?
Yeah. They’re from RAINN, which I linked to above. It’s the largest anti-sexual assault, abuse, and rape organization in the country. Those are reliable stats.
Sorry I missed that (too many links open now). They really are shocking statistics
It makes me feel more strongly on the subject regarding blame culture. I know it exists, but I’m curious to what degree and who actually holds the belief that women can ever be to blame (aside from false allegations that is).
Just to disabuse you of the false report idea you put forward in a previous comment:
“In 1960 law enforcement cited false reporting at 20%. By 1973 the statistics had dropped to 15%. After 1973 the New York city police department used female officers to investigate sexual assault cases and the false reporting rate dropped to 2% according to the FBI.”
Reassuring – thank you.
Source (for others): http://www.ibiblio.org/rcip/reporting.html
Blaize, you continue to make this same argument, but NOBODY (at least in this stream of comments) is trying to say that the perceptions of rape victims don’t need to be changed. Do we live in a culture overrun by victim blaming? Yes, and it’s disgusting.
What we ARE arguing is that there is no sense in not taking precautions wherever you can, and that people who advocate these precautions should not automatically be labeled a ‘victim blamer’ or a ‘rape apologist.’
Rapists will rape, that much is obvious, and no matter what we do, we cannot stop them from being rapists. What we CAN do, however, is make ourselves less of an easy target for these rapists AND continue to fight the disgusting misconceptions of rape victims. The two are not mutually exclusive.
I disagree with this comment: “Rapists will rape, that much is obvious, and no matter what we do, we cannot stop them from being rapists.”
And that is my precise point.
You read too much into my comment, but I apologize if I was unclear. Parents have a responsibility to teach their children, no matter their gender, how to treat people with kindness and respect, to teach them about personal boundaries, to teach them what should and shouldn’t be done. There are rapists who come from homes where their parents did just that, though. Once a human gets into the rapist mindset, they are going to rape. They have justified the act to themselves, or they have a complete lack of conscience. Once someone becomes a rapist, there is little that can be done to change their mindset. The vast majority of rapists rape again, no matter what kind of intervention is tried. You would agree with that, would you not?
If you are burgled, the fact that you own objects will not be held against you by a jury. If a woman is raped, the fact that she owns a vagina will, in fact, be held against her. Because no matter how cautious your daughters are, if they get raped, then the defense will find some way to blame them for their own rapes, and juries will believe that bullshit.
It is not the ownership. Owning a car, just like “owning a vagina” will not make anyone blame you should you get into an accident in your car or with your vagina for that matter.
A defence attorney will look for reasons to blame the owner, such as (perhaps) alcohol abuse.
That we can accept alcohol abuse as a reason for blame in a car crash is acceptable. That some may accept this as a reason for blame in rape is not.
I was wearing sweatpants and an over-sized sweatshirt. I was not home alone… there was family just downstairs. I was with a guy that had usually been someone I would go out and about with because I thought he was a trusted individual, and he had kept me safe from others. I was wrong. And yet, I didn’t report it. Because, a) I had consented to sex with him before, b) we were alone in my room watching a movie, c) I didn’t think anyone would believe me… and there were people who didn’t.
I think that’s bullshit.
That being said… whether I have sons/daughters/genderqueer children, I will tell them ways they might help keep themselves safe. I will also have conversations with them about how THEY are to treat OTHERS. I by no means think it is an acceptable thing that I will have to teach my children fear. I’ve often wondered whether or not I wanted to bring children into this world because fucked up things happen. I know… I’ve experienced some of them. I work avidly to educate the people around me about things I’m passionate about… rape culture being one of them. Rape culture NEEDS to change. Much, much more energy and attention need to be given to that gods-awful dynamic so it can be eliminated as soon as possible… Now. Yesterday…
In the meantime, however, I will do everything in my power to educate people about the dangers of living within a rape culture, with numerous, NUMEROUS group of individuals that feel they have a right to others bodies when they do not. That may not be a popular view, and I can certainly understand why, but I do feel it is a realistic one until we manage to bring about the necessary change.
Musical interlude anyone? haha
All the questions pointed at me have already been answered in what I have said. Therefore, I am not going to answer again, or pull quotes from my own comments to show where I have answered, but urge you to re-read what I wrote instead.
Blaize, you are full of win and you have done a great job here.
Full of win? ZOMG!!1!11one.
/end lame.
It’s not about winning. Sigh. It’s about trying to find some common ground / agreement on the betterment of society by trying as hard as possible to write in a way that is accessible to others.
Wow. Way to take a nice comment to someone and make it all about you.
You seem to have taken something useful (knowledge about reality) away from this thread, but it took a hell of a lot of effort on the part of people like Blaize to get you there. So I think you need to take a step back here.
“Full of win” is just an expression. So stop being rude about someone who merely complimented someone else.
Avoid going out late at night and never trust anyone ever.
Shit. I didn’t know paranoia could prevent rape. How very helpful!
No-one said this prevents rape.
Oh please. The article calls them “ways to avoid sexual assault”.
This is the first and last time I will respond to you. You’re acting like some kind of big man, telling all the women what to do, what to think, what to feel, how to speak, and how to behave. You aren’t worth the considerable effort everyone here is expending on you, and I’m not going to waste one more second of my precious time on you.
Oh hai. I’m late to the party.
So here’s a story.
The lake where I run started being frequented by gangs who were, in groups or isolated incidents, attacking people. Single joggers (male, female, young, old), a man with his dog, an old couple walking around the lake.
In rape-culture logic, everyone should have just stopped going to that lake. Let the gangs take over. If you wanted to run there, it was your fault if you got attacked.
But you know what? That’s not what happened. The neighborhood banded together. Organized watch groups. Kept jogging and walking and playing around the lake. Asked for more frequent police patrols.
Because the lake belonged to the neighborhood–not gangs and violence.
And you know what? This world does not fucking belong to rapists. Period.
Don’t give me that shit about taking precautions because it’s not realistic to prevent rape. That’s the type of attitude that supports rape AND enables victim blaming. Let’s work at preventing rape.
For Jon and a whole bunch of the rest:
Rape Culture 101
Here, I’ll quote possibly the most relevant piece to this discussion (although to be honest, it’s all pretty fucking relevant)”
“Rape culture is tasking victims with the burden of rape prevention. Rape culture is encouraging women to take self-defense as though that is the only solution required to preventing rape. Rape culture is admonishing women to “learn common sense” or “be more responsible” or “be aware of barroom risks” or “avoid these places” or “don’t dress this way,” and failing to admonish men to not rape.”
Oh, and the other relevant part:
” Rape culture is refusing to acknowledge that the only thing a person can do to avoid being raped is never be in the same room as a rapist. Rape culture is avoiding talking about what an absurdly unreasonable expectation that is, since rapists don’t announce themselves or wear signs or glow purple.”
YES. That’s my favorite link about rape culture, and I think I’ve linked to it before on this blog. I sent it to someone I was supposed to go out with once and he told me that her ideas were “exaggerated and illogical.” I canceled the date.
I also think that the definition of mansplaining is quite relevant here, especially in response to many (if not all) of Jon’s comments.
Yeah I’m pretty sure I got mansplainin’ and rape apology bingo both in this thread.
Stop talking like every single person giving advise expects it to prevent rape. WHERE DID I SAY THIS? Ohhhhh he’s a mannnnnn. Oh they must hate women. Actually, it’s not – many women have raised issue here with Blaize and her followers.
Stop making this a black and white either or scenario. We want to give advise and we’re rape apologists? “You’re either wish us or against us”. George W Bush used that rhetoric when talking about terrorists.
I realise “full of win” is an expression / internet meme and I was not being rude. I was saying that it’s stupid to sum things up as someone having won. I have no problem if you agree with Blaize, but to act like someone has won and done a great job is juvenile. As I said, it’s about attempting to write with literary transparency so that both parties can reach a better degree of understanding. It’s a shame the fundamental beliefs by Blaize were not posted clearly – rather she spent more energy are saying how we “didn’t get it” / “had to re-read her elucid points” /
one of which would be that through education we can stop rape. Stop it completely. This issue divides many and I find it hard to see how either side could ever really agree. Some have said “it will always happen”. Blaize eventually noted she disagreed.
Many of us have sat here asking questions of her, thinking we’re speaking lucidly but without reply. It isn’t just me who has said they would give advice to their children / think advice is a sensible ADDITION (ADDITION FFS) to talking about why women need to be safe / changing rape culture. We’re all rape apologists are we? Because that is what I’ve been tagged by Britni. How convenient you can throw around made up board games or self invented terms to condone all us men. Brilliant, feed into your belief system with wit and humour.
I have learnt a lot from the links posted, when they were posted without vitriol. Thanks to those who managed it.
@french
Thanks for the link and quotes. Personally I prefer wikipedia but I thought this was enlightening: “Rape culture is encouraging male sexual aggression. Rape culture is regarding violence as sexy and sexuality as violent. Rape culture is treating rape as a compliment.”
So based on what I’ve seen here, if someone gives advice (even if they agree rape culture needs to change), they are a rape apologist, and on the assumption that a rape apologist feeds rape culture, they also believe violence is sexy and treat rape as a compliment?
So based on what I’ve seen here, if someone gives advice (even if they agree rape culture needs to change), they are a rape apologist, and on the assumption that a rape apologist feeds rape culture, they also believe violence is sexy and treat rape as a compliment?
No one said that if you’re guilty of ascribing to some aspects of rape culture (whether consciously or not) that you’re guilty of ascribing to all of them.
But you personally, think I am a rape apologist, right? That and everyone else who agrees advice is sensible but fully acknowledges it doesn’t equal prevention, and that we need to open up the conversation on rape? Is that too grey for you?
This just reminds me of the “pro-life” term / tag. It is a VERY badly chosen term and attempts to divide people (through anger usually).
I’m not engaging you any more on this, as now you’re just getting aggressive and hostile. I posted a video that alana made after reading this post and the comments. It’s at the top of my blog, and I’d recommend watching that, as she is much more articulate and less cynical than those of us that you seem to be taking issue with.
That’s all I’m going to say in this thread anymore.
Well, thank you for not censoring me at least.
It’s a shame that you can call me a rape apologist and then I’m the aggressive one.
I’ve already watched her video and it’s great. She doesn’t get angry or call anyone a rape apologist, which helps open up discussion rather than shut it down and put people into defensive mode. Something for you to learn as well, perhaps.
I’m not here to censor anyone, despite what people like to think and accuse me of. The only people I censor are the ones that directly make inappropriate and cruel personal attacks on me. Dissenting opinions I never censor.
Yeah, I get angry and cynical and I forget that a lot of people that read here don’t frequent the same brand of feminist websites that I do and aren’t versed in what I’m trying to say, and I get easily frustrated because I feel like I’ve gone over this so much, but the truth is, most people that read here HAVEN’T. On the other hand, there were some really well articulated arguments made here towards you that you just talked over, took from them what you wanted to take, and failed to really listen to. So, maybe that’s something for YOU to learn, too.
Jon, I think part of the issue is not that you were giving advice, but rather who you were giving it to. Anytime you try to tell someone what they should have done after an event occurs it always sounds like you are blaming them. This is true for rape or car accidents or anything really.
So, while it is good to educate people who don’t know, and yes I agree that it can help, the advice isn’t needed here. To people who have been raped it sounds like you are blaming them for not behaving a certain way by repeating something which already know. Also, in this case it wouldn’t have mattered either way so you’re basically exacerbating the feeling that you’re blaming the victim.
I’m glad you’ve been able to come back and keep commenting and seemingly learn a bit but you could work on putting yourself in their shoes a bit better next time.
Jon, several things:
First, from your comments, I can surmise that you clearly do not understand how hard it is for women sometimes to talk about these kind of things without people like you attempting to shout them down. So it’s totally inappropriate of you to a) disparage my compliment to someone else for her well-articulated arguments and b) insert yourself into that piece of the conversation, since I WAS NOT TALKING TO YOU.
Second, if you do not want to be thought of as a rape apologist, you could try the strategy of, you know, not using arguments that rape apologists use to silence and disparage victims. We (as in, people on this blog, women in general) do not label all men as rape apologists. There are many, many men in my life who are not. We do tend, however, to label people as rape apologists when they start talking like rape apologists. This is not some big persecution thing. No one made any assumptions about you: you came in and started spouting apologia that we have all heard a million times before. I hope what you take away from this leads to a little bit of introspection and not knee-jerk blaming of everyone else for how you come across.
Finally, I think I’ve actually figured out what’s going on with you, aside from massive amounts of unexamined privilege: you’re a tone troll. Information is not automatically invalidated when the person conveying it is hostile to you. You don’t have the right to walk through life with everyone being nice to you: given this thread, that’s certainly not a consideration you afford to other people. Your job as a supposedly rational human being is to evaluate information and arguments, regardless of tone. I most frequently see the “tone” BS from creationists, so that in and of itself should drive home how desperate it sounds. So whining “ZOMG YOUR TONE IS PREVENTING ME FROM HEARING WHAT YOU’RE SAYING” is pathetic, dude, and you need to grow up. I’m embarrassed for you.
I can surmise that you clearly do not understand how hard it is for women sometimes to talk about these kind of things without people like you attempting to shout them down.
Read my first post. Did I attempt to SHOUT anyone down? Did I “spout apologia”? I posed a simple question that struck me from reading the original post: that is, some tips about behaviour could help (not solve) prevent some instances of rape.
I started with “I’m not a rape apologist but…” because I sensed ALREADY that I had to defend myself against the anger here. I thought it was needed in order to make some headway in the discussion and might put you at ease. Clearly not. And yet, just because of that, I was called a rape apologist both here and on twitter by Britni. No, saying that does not make me a rape apologist. Britni talks about “LOGIC FTW”. This is a bad example of logic.
Not once did I insult, or act smug, use sarcasm or act or superior until I was treated that way by either yourself, Britni or Blaize. Tone is important – not everything, but should act mature and remain civil. I have tried my very best to do so.
Would you like it if I labelled you as a militant feminist or a feminazi simply because you happened to believe something that fitted a definition of those terms?
The term rape apologist is disgusting in all honesty and the ease at which you throw it around is not in any way productive to helping with this horrible issue. I’ve seen absolutely no room for discussion on this matter here – I’m a rape apologist in your eyes and yet, I can say that a rapist should always be to blame and the victim should never take any of the blame. It is NEVER their fault. How does that fit your ridiculous definition?
“Read my first post. Did I attempt to SHOUT anyone down? Did I “spout apologia”?”
Um…yes. And yes. To choose just one example of each, you repeatedly discounted Blaine’s point of view (and condescendingly told her that her life must be oh so horrible). And seriously, dude? No apologia? I posed that rape apologist bingo as a joke, but you hit like half the things on there. For someone who chides others about tone, you are certainly deaf to your own. Everyone here has been perfectly civil to you.
No, Britni calling you a rape apologist doesn’t make you a rape apologist. You saying things that rape apologists commonly say, however, might. So you can see why people might label you as such. The ease with which the term “is thrown around” should maybe clue you in to the fact there is tons of rape apologia out there in the world that we women deal with every day that you are most likely blind to (and that’s not an insult: why would you pay attention to it if it doesn’t have anything to do with you?). It would be nice if you could take a good, hard look at your assumptions and be a little deferential to the thought, feelings, and opinions of the people who have to deal with the problem.
And just so you know, I have zero problem being labeled a militant feminist or a feminazi because I hold the belief that women are human beings and deserve justice.
This comment is good and you should feel good.
Sorry I should have said that the ease at which you throw the term around is disgusting, not the term itself (which may be appropriate in some cases).
I guess what I’m trying to get across to you is: can you step back and see why your “advice” is unhelpful? Can you see why it makes people angry? Can you see how “advice” like this functions in a larger context of rapists and abusers walking free and people constantly finding reasons to blame women for their own victimization, abuse, and assault? Can you see why coming to a feminist space and telling those girls what’s what is not appropriate, when you have never experienced anything remotely related to what the post is about? If the answer to these is yes, we have made progress. If the answer is no, you have some work to do.
Britni’s blog entry hardly strikes me as controversial–or rather, it is, but it shouldn’t be. If someone is robbed or mugged or murdered, people don’t generally respond by focusing on what that person should have done to prevent it. Only rape gets that response.
There are lots of people all over the Internet who condemn rape, and, if confronted with actual examples, clarify that they mean a woman getting jumped by a man she doesn’t know and dragged into a dark alley. Jon, you’ve never seen anyone on the Internet say that rape is horrible but when it’s someone she knows and she’s drunk and she says “no” repeatedly but she doesn’t have any broken bones so she obviously can’t have been resisting that much, it “devalues real rape,” by which they mean a stranger in a dark alley, to use the word “rape” to describe that–despite the fact that that form of rape is far more common and every bit as monstrous as the stranger-in-the-alley scenario? Remarkable.
“You’re upset, so I hit a nerve” is probably the most pathetic recurring argument I’ve ever seen. It’s not hard to make people angry. Show a rape survivor an article that claims rape is “caused by” something other than someone choosing to do something horrible to someone else, and indicate you think she should believe it? That’s an easy way to get anger. No insight required or involved.
I got robbed a year and a half ago, and you would not believe the amount of people who focused on “where your purse was” and “how you could have prevented it.” It was frustrating. That’s just my little two cents here.
Jon, you come into this comment section with a severe lack of basic
knowledge about things that many of the people who read this blog are
fully aware of. These things include the rarity of false rape
accusations, the shaming and blaming of victims by defense lawyers and
juries, and many other points. Then you seem to expect us to educate
you and are hurt and disappointed when we get annoyed by the fact that
you don’t want to do your own research, and haven’t done it in the
first place.
Would you please quit telling me how to behave towards you and how I
should argue and start thinking about why your comments are provoking
such a reaction? Is it because I’m just a hostile bitch, or could you, you know, be DOING something that is getting my goat? Also, I will agree with Outspoken Clitic, you are a tone troll. You keep telling us HOW we are supposed to respond to you, and telling how we are not doing a good job arguing WITH YOU because we aren’t coming up to YOUR standards of debate. Can you please try to see how offensive it is for you to come here and not only give “advise” to women about rape, but then try to police the tone with which we react to that “advise”?
What are you trying to get out of this comment thread at this point? I would love to know, truly.
The fact that you brought up the now-debunked myth of false rape
accusations is where you completely lost me. I really don’t feel the
need to agree with or even listen to someone who is so basically
uninformed about the topic he is choosing to discuss. This is when I
decided to say you have been living underwater because seriously,
dude, you actually thought that false reporting was widespread and you
were grateful to find out it wasn’t.
I spent about 3 sentences saying how you weren’t listening, as
compared to paragraphs of ideas that you have chosen to either ignore
or misinterpret. For example, I say, “I disagree with this comment:
‘Rapists will rape, that much is obvious, and no matter what we do, we
cannot stop them from being rapists.’ And that is my precise point.”
Your interpretation of this statement is, “through education we can
stop rape. Stop it completely.”
What I said is that I disagree with the idea that there is nothing we
can do to stop rapists from being rapists NO MATTER WHAT WE DO.
Education and upbringing would be ONE way to stop some rapists from
being formed. Better law enforcement and training would be a way to
stop rapists from getting away with it. Not allowing a victim’s past
sexual history as a defense tactic would be helpful.
You simplify and exaggerate my ideas, either on purpose or because you
don’t understand what I am saying. Since you came into the
conversation with so little basic knowledge, I’ll assume that you
don’t understand and are not maliciously misreading me.
However, it is not our job to educate you, and it is not our job to
treat you fairly when you come into a conversation without knowledge
of the subject at hand. You can tell me a million times how mean and
awful and snobbish I am, but none of those things will excuse the fact
that you have been almost entirely talking through your hat about
something you clearly have an opinion on but have not studied or
thought about in any reasonably thorough (or even respectably cursory)
way.
It has been gently suggested to you that you do a little research and
then come back. You have avoided this advice in order to come here and
demand we give you links, and then tell us that you don’t like our
language, our coping methods, our use of humor, and our frustration
with you and your lack of basic conceptual understanding of the topic
at hand.
I do not think that women shouldn’t be cautious. I will state, one
more time, my overall argument: The issue is that the mantra that
women should be “safe” overwhelms the conversation, and leads to a
society where the civil rights of women are curtailed or
self-curtailed.
And Jesus H. Christ are you getting on my nerves.
Also, I’d be really comfortable with you labeling me a militant feminist or a feminazi. Because I wish the first were true, and that I was will to fight harder for what I believe, and the second is ridiculous, because I didn’t burn 6 million Jews in my feminist oven.
Jon, I want to say upfront that I don’t think you’re victim-blaming or a rape-apologist or any other scary term I can think of (we actually seem to agree in fact). It seems like you clearly realize that rapists are the ones who are doing the raping and deserve the blame so I think your heart is in the right place. I think a lot of the confusion in the comments stems from not diferentiating between victim-blaming “tips” (great example here of what I mean) and genuinely good information. I think you (and a few others) are looking at this from the genuinely good information angle, while some of the other comments are looking at it from the victim-blaming side. Because of this, the conversation has obviously hit wall after wall of misunderstanding.
The main problem with these particular tips (not talking about good information yet) is that they reinforce the idea that men can’t help themselves and women should just be more careful. (Blaize said it perfectly when she said these tips maintains the dynamic that women are natural victims and men natural predators.) These tips are also extremely patronizing. I know you saw my video, so you know what I mean. Women have had these “tips” pounded into their heads since we were little girls and it doesn’t take a PhD to figure out that a well lit street is better then a darkly lit one. But here’s my main problem with these tips, they don’t address the real problem. The vast majority of women are raped by people they know instead of guys in dark alleys. All these tips do is offer up general information that most people already follow (I sure as hell don’t go prancing around alleys or get so drunk I can’t walk) under the guise of “helping” women. But you know what would really help women? Not treating them like criminals when they have been assaulted and actually prosecuting rapists (though I am not saying it has to be either or). These tips, when coupled with rape culture, are really just a way of justifying why some women are raped without having to do any real thinking about what causes rape and the way we value masculinity and undervalue femininity. That is why some people are bothered by your comments. They (though I do not mean to put words in any one’s mouth and apologize if I mischaracterize any one’s feelings) are bothered by this line of thinking because they realize “prevention tips” are just another symptom of rape culture and they’ve seen, and felt, first hand how rape culture re-victimizes rape victims. And justifiably, it pisses them off. (Plus it is often used as a tool to control female behavior and who would like that?.)
Now, does this mean there is no useful information we could be teaching men and women? Of course not. Anyone who says otherwise is talking ideologically instead of realistically (though I’m not saying anyone has said this here). Like I said in my video, a clear understanding of consent would do wonders I think. Changing the way we think about sex, as a game men have to win and women have to evade – at least in pretense, may genuinely start to change rape culture as well. Women also need to just be aware of the facts. Never being alone with a man in an elevator is unlikely to stop me from being raped (and do you see the paranoia towards men many of these tips promote?), but knowing the over 70% of rapists know their victim very well may. (And knowing not to shower after being assaulted for the rape kit may actually get the rapist put behind bars if a woman is lucky.) These “tips,” I support %100 and I think most people do too. Supporting awareness does not equal victim blaming.
Look, no one wants their loved ones to be hurt and I think we all are trying to do whatever we can to try and avoid that from happening. But the reality is there is no magic “tip” that can do that. As long as our primary focus is on instructing women how to avoid being victims, then rape will never stop being prolific (because we’re not addressing why rapists rape). As I said before, it doesn’t have to be either or. People trying to stop individual rape and those trying to change rape culture are working for the same goal. If we realize that we can work together instead of alienating one another (wow I hope that doesn’t sound like I’m being all high and mighty or patronizing). I would only warn that as a man you have a little more work cut out for you since it’s very hard to understand what it’s like to be a woman living in our rape culture. Some of your comments can read a little like you trying to tell us women how we should feel about rape, the threat of which you don’t have to deal with as we do. I’m sure you would never mean to do so, but that’s what being an ally is about. When they say that these tips reinforce rape culture, they don’t mean you are a bad person or a victim-blamer. This isn’t the type of conversation to take personally – on both sides (I know it’s hard with this subject though).
Sorry that was so long. I hope I helped with some of the misunderstanding.
I’m really happy you mentioned consent in your video, Alana. I’m a big fan of moving everyone to the model of enthusiastic consent: that is, instead of assuming all women are in a naturally consenting state (and that in order to prevent sexual contact the woman needs to make her non-consent vocal), we need to all be assuming that women exist in a state of non-consent and will happily and vocally let you know when consent is obtained. The former fosters a system where women are viewed as public property and encourages rape (and also encourages victim-blaming, as people will always say that the victim did not say no loudly or forcefully enough).
Exactly! That was what I was trying to say but hadn’t quite formed the idea yet. The idea that women are in a naturally consenting state explains so much about rape culture and sexual assault (not to mention cat-calling).
What that list of advice said to me: always be with people you trust, but know that you can’t actually trust anyone. You’re pretty much SOL and will get raped no matter what you do
aaaaamen- i agree with YOU!!!!! (Britni, not the commenters)
2 Trackbacks
[...] yesterday’s post and epic comments section, Alana was inspired to make a video [...]
[...] just be The Best Comment Ever regarding how to avoid being sexually assaulted. He was replying to MoonlightSunshine’s comment on this post: Why don’t you go “be safe” from getting killed. I do what I can and no one [...]