Homewrecker


A friend and I got to talking the other day about the concept of a “homewrecker,” after reading a magazine article accusing Angelina Jolie of “stealing” Brad Pitt from Jennifer Aniston. Her and I were on the same page about this: I don’t think there’s such a thing as a “homewrecker.” We use the word “homewrecker” to describe someone who has an affair with a married man, thus “wrecking” his home and destroying his family once his wife finds out.

But the thing is, if that relationship was a strong, happy one to begin with, the affair wouldn’t have happened. There would have been no reason for him to stray. He was looking for something that he wasn’t getting at home. If it wasn’t that woman, it would have happened with another. Because affairs aren’t about the person being cheated with; that person could be interchangeable. There’s something else that the adulterer is getting from that extramarrital dalliance. A void they’re filling. If their marriage was happy, they wouldn’t cheat. [EDIT: I've clarified what I mean here in the comments section, as several readers have pointed out that my point comes across differently than I intended it to.]
And why is it that when a man has an affair, the woman is a “homewrecker,” painted as some seductress that pursued a married man and maliciously stole him from his wife, but if it’s the woman who has an affair, we never paint the other man that way? Why are mistresses seen as evil, villains, HOMEWRECKERS, but men in the same situation aren’t? When *that’s* the situation, it’s the cheating woman that’s vilified. She’s *still* a homewrecker! She just wrecked her own home. She destroyed her family!
Are women the only people capable of “destroying” a family? If a woman has an affair with a married man, she “destroyed” his family. If a wife cheats on her husband, she destroyed their family. In either case, neither woman has destroyed anything. The one that is the mistress is not responsible for the actions of the married man, and if he’s willing to form a relationship with her it’s because his marriage is already on it’s way to being “destroyed.” If a wife has an affair, it’s the same thing; she’s unhappy in her marriage. And why don’t we blame the man? If we do, it’s usually with a shrug and a, “Well, he’s a man. He couldn’t resist the temptation when that woman threw herself at him.” We “blame” the man, but chalk it up to men’s supposed biological lack of self-control.
When a married person has an affair, instead of vilifying them, the partner needs to work with them to figure out why it happened in the first place and what’s missing in the relationship, if it’s fixable, and if they even want to try to fix it. And we need to drop this whole concept of “homewreckers.” Because they don’t exist.
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27 Comments

  1. Nell Gwynne
    Posted January 11, 2010 at 1:17 am | Permalink

    Hammer. Nail. Head. Et. cetera. Excellent post.

  2. Vanilla Kinks
    Posted January 11, 2010 at 1:40 am | Permalink

    I've been labelled a homewrecker twice in my life. I hate it!

    I didn't do anything wrong, but like you stated here, it's always the woman who has gone a screwed something up!

  3. nuclearrainbow
    Posted January 11, 2010 at 2:06 am | Permalink

    I agree with you that a 'homewrecker' does not exist (especially the fact that it's always the women's fault, I never saw that so clearly, but I do now), but I don't agree with your second paragraph.

    People don't only cheat because they miss something in their current relationship. There are many motives why people would go around their partner, and missing something in their current relationship is one of them, but certainly not all of them. Because many people do believe in this argument, polyamory is so unnaccepted (even worse than bdsm/kink), because "there must be something wrong in your current relationship if you want something else". Which is of course, not true, which we both know.

    So I'm actually a bit disappointed to see this reasoning here, Britni :/

    /Nuclear Rainbow

  4. Ms. Inconspicuous
    Posted January 11, 2010 at 3:14 am | Permalink

    @Nuclear Rainbow: Polyamory is an example of consensual non-monogamy–not of cheating. So I don't think the same reasoning applies anyway.

    @Britni: Amen. Really, that's all I have to say.

  5. nuclearrainbow
    Posted January 11, 2010 at 4:01 am | Permalink

    @Ms. Inconspicuous: I know that. But if this reasoning would be "true", than polyamory would be "wrong" as well (and that is how many people view it, not the polyamorists themselves), because it says that when you want to search something outside of your relationship, something must be wrong with your current relationship. Which isn't necessary.
    And even if that argument would not hold, that still makes it a very limited view, since, as I said, there are many reasons why people would cheat, and not just this one.

    /Nuclear Rainbow

  6. sqweakygurl
    Posted January 11, 2010 at 4:31 am | Permalink

    This is why i feel like marriage is such a bad idea, being in a committed relationship and standing by that person for as long as you two can withstand each other is one thing, but legally devoting yourself to another individual is such a crappy concept. If your spouse cheats yeah I’m sure you can sit down and talk it out like adults but i don't know a lot of " adults " who are good at doing the adult thing? I think if grownups were any good at handling their relationships people wouldn't have to cheat, or hide the fact that they love being spanked or love to cross dress.

    I feel like "home wreckers" male and females alike deserve to be vilified, as a matter of fact i think everyone should be vilified because IMO it's everyone’s fault.

    Non-cheating spouse should be more open to the needs of their partner, because if they had a better communication system cheating spouse wouldn't have to hide how they feel. Cheating spouse should know better, whether they decide to walk off the beaten path because their non-cheating spouse works a lot or the sex isn't that great anymore( or whatever your reasoning maybe; have the balls to talk about it or suffer the consequences of your actions.

    Home wrecker should take into account all the reasons cheating spouse left in the first place because more then likely cheating spouse will leave you too. Walking in on a damaged relationship doesn’t make them the wiser or the victim but they are at fault for not having the common sense to turn away from a potentially harmful situation. To say that homewrecker is normally female, I feel is a little one sided and when you think about it, scorned and vengeful women on average are the ones who do the name slinging; whether your talking about the one who cheats or the willing participant in cheating. (Seriously ladies we have to stop this chick on chick crime). Another thing I noticed is when you read magazines like star, life & style, etc,etc they are geared toward the drama loving teenager in all of us. In those editorials women are always the home wrecker, men are always dogs, and someone is always playing the victim.

  7. Another Suburban Mom
    Posted January 11, 2010 at 6:37 am | Permalink

    I personally think if Jennifer Aniston had just shrugged her shoulders and said, "Look, its Angelina freaking Jolie. I probably would have had an affair with her too." and then smiled, she would have come off much better than the love lorn victim that she is portrayed as.

    This is just replayed because its big drama, kind of like the Debbie Reynolds/Eddie Fischer/Elizabeth Taylor drama back in the 60's.

  8. sarahbear
    Posted January 11, 2010 at 7:29 am | Permalink

    Homewreckers do exist.

    Angelina Jolie is a homewrecker because she knew full well that Brad Pitt was married to Jennifer Aniston when she began having an affair with him. Homewreckers are people who do not wait for someone's relationship to end, or there to be the go ahead to delve into poly or whatever before indulging in their own desires to be with someone, male or female.

    The partner who cheats is also a homewrecker, whether male or female, because they knew they were in a relationship with someone and still decided to go elsewhere behind their partners back.

    While I agree that there are often times something missing from the relationship that lead to the affair, that does not excuse it. The person who cheated is 100% responsible for their actions. They need to be vilified because what they did was wrong. Instead of seeking to fulfill whatever void they thought was in their relationship *they* should have been the one to go to their partners and ask for what they needed.

    Suggesting that the victim of an affair is at all to blame for their partners selfish choices is as bad as suggesting a woman is to blame for being raped. It's up to the victim to decide if they are willing to work on the relationship after such a huge betrayal and they should not be pressured into shouldering some of the blame for a situation that was beyond their control.

  9. Librarian Babe
    Posted January 11, 2010 at 8:29 am | Permalink

    I think it's pretty clear why the woman is labeled the homewrecker – sexism. Women are supposed to be the upkeepers of virtue, and if a woman dares have sex then the whole issue is her fault – not the man who decided to cheat.

    But, as they say, it takes two to tango. While in some instances the woman may be more to blame, we need to hold the man up to the same standard as women.

    Nadia

  10. Britni TheVadgeWig
    Posted January 11, 2010 at 8:41 am | Permalink

    Nuclearrainbow, I'm discussing the traditional monogamous relationship here, and not poly relationships. I think that open and poly relationships can work very well, and should be more accepted as options for couples that desire them. In some cases, maybe the "something that's missing" is the *ability* to have sex/relationships with other people, when that's what one partner desires. Nothing is technically missing in the primary relationship then, per se, but if one person desires a different relationship structure than monogamy, something *is* missing for them, no matter how happy they are with their partner.

    I don't know if I'm articulating my point here, correctly, but I was in no way trying to suggest that monogamy is the only relationship structure that's acceptable (I don't do monogamous relationships myself!). I was just using the standard two (hetero) people in a relationship in which monogamy is the promise and the expectation. There's nothing wrong with non-monogamy, but if you enter into a relationship under the guise of monogamy, then any outside activity *is* cheating, because that's not the expectation that your partner has for that relationship.

    …I feel like this is incoherent. I hope it makes sense.

  11. thedoggedpursuit
    Posted January 11, 2010 at 8:51 am | Permalink

    Regarding your point about the one-sidedness of blaming "only" the women, I agree. [I also just saw your latest comment -- yes, if you agree to monagamy and THEN choose to have an unagreed-to relationship outside of it, it's cheating.] But I absolutely disagree with the notion that cheater's partner is somehow blameless in the destruction of the relationship. As was stated by someone else, if you know someone is in a monogamous relationship and you choose to enter into a non-monogamous relationship with that person, then you are not innocent of wrong-doing any more than if you walked into someone else's home and helped yourself to the food in their fridge without permission.

    One of the more irksome qualities of independent thinkers is the assumption that as long as they are internally OK with their choices, then whatever they harm they inflict on others is not their responsibility. Again, applying that same logic, you could drive down the street smashing into other people's cars and say "hey, it's their fault for parking there, they should just deal with it. I'm drivin' here!"

    Participating in an affair (whether you are the cheater OR the other person), regardless of the rationale, makes one party to deception, lying, betrayal, and the complete disregard for another human being. And that's what makes cheaters lying, decietful, untrustworthy, callous individuals who've earned every bit of villification that comes their way.

  12. Britni TheVadgeWig
    Posted January 11, 2010 at 9:10 am | Permalink

    thedoggedpersuit– I agree with a lot of your points, I do. And the person being cheated on isn't *at fault,* per se, but often, I think it results from a lack of communication. Maybe the cheater didn't do a good enough job articulating their needs to their partner. But often, especially in being a single girl online, when many of the men that I meet are married and unfaithful or looking for *something* online, I often hear that their partners don't meet their needs in many ways, and aren't overly concerned with doing so, despite effort on that person's part.

    In many of these cases, neither partner is doing a good enough job of communicating needs, wants, and desires and feelings.

    As for the third party, yes, they know full well what they're getting into. Are they to blame for the problems in the other's relationship, though? Not at all. I guess it's like being guilty by association, but it was the married person that sought out (or, just didn't stop it once it began to develop) extramarital activity in the first place, and that's not their fault in the least.

  13. Mallory
    Posted January 11, 2010 at 9:33 am | Permalink

    I completely agree that both parties in a cheating situation should be held accountable, but I take issue with the statement "If their marriage was happy, they wouldn't cheat." If someone has even the slightest inkling that they may be capable of cheating, they shouldn't get married. If their marriage is unhappy, they should get a divorce. There is no good reason for cheating to occur.

    The married party should not allow this situation to happen because when you get married, you are signing up for a lifetime with the other person. If there is something amiss in the relationship, the two people should either work at it and fix it, or they should go their separate ways. Nothing is solved by cheating and it usually only makes matters worse.

    So, yes, let's stop the one-sided blaming of women. But if someone is weak enough to give into temptation and cheat, he or she should not get married, simple as that. People need to learn you can't have it both ways.

  14. sarahbear
    Posted January 11, 2010 at 10:15 am | Permalink

    Britni – As the single girl who meets many men online who are looking for something on the side you have no idea about the dynamics of any one of those men's relationships. You know what they want you to know. You have no idea how much effort anyone has put into showing their partner what they need or how much effort that partner has put into giving them what they need. And once the decision has been made to seek their desires outside of the relationship, their perception of the relationship then becomes distorted. The time and effort spent nurturing the affair can easily make a person forget how much effort they're putting into their relationship with their partner.

    As the single girl meeting men online seeking affairs, you have no idea what it's like to live with that person day after day. Seeing them at their worst, managing finances, taking care of the house, the yardwork, the mortgage and electric bill. If there are children involved, you don't know what kind of strain that puts on their relationship and what a massive responsibility that is. You get to see his internet personality. He's putting his best foot forward and trying to make himself seem like the poor guy who just wishes his wife paid him more attention. You don't get to see the guy that leaves his laundry in a pile on the floor for his wife to clean up. You don't get to see the guy who plays video games while his wife puts the kids to bed, writes a check to cover their lunch money and checks over their homework. You don't get to see the guy who chooses to watch the football game instead of taking his wife out to dinner, or the guy who decides to buy himself a new ipod instead of sending his wife flowers.

    There are two sides to every story.

    While the third party isn't the reason the problems began in the first place, they become part of the problem should they knowingly engage in an emotional/physical affair with someone who is already in a relationship. It's their fault because they are knowingly hurting someone. Even though they may not be friends with or know them personally, they are smart enough to know that what they are doing is hurting the person and putting another crack in the foundation of an already damaged relationship. They need to be mature and decide not to engage in the behavior instead of being selfish.

  15. Brigit
    Posted January 11, 2010 at 10:23 am | Permalink

    "Participating in an affair (whether you are the cheater OR the other person), regardless of the rationale, makes one party to deception, lying, betrayal, and the complete disregard for another human being.

    This. Breaking trust in a committed relationship is highly unethical. Aiding in the breaking of trust is unethical as well.
    If people find monogamous relationships unsatisfactory then they should not pursue these relationships. And problems within relationships should be addressed by the people on them, not be given out as an excuse to break agreements without loosing credibility.
    Laying the whole of the blame on the "other-person" is disingenuous. However, placing the blame on the wife/husband that is not cheating can be even more so disingenuous.
    Anecdotal: My dad was an abusive asshole and a cheating bastard. However everyone blamed my mom for the divorce and the cheating, because obviously she hadn't worked hard enough to please him. I still remember my stepmom (who was his lover, initially) saying as much when I was little. But the fact is nobody knows really what goes on in a marriage except the 2 people in it (and the kids that do see everything).

  16. Saraid
    Posted January 11, 2010 at 11:36 am | Permalink

    Britni,

    Thank you so much for posting this. The term homewrecker is something that hits me on a personal level as my current partner was in a relationship when I met him. We didn't sleep together until after his relationship had ended, but the woman still hunted me down on a regular basis to call me a "homewrecker," a term which I've never really understood.

    She then talked to others (she was a staff member on my campus) and spread more of her bitterness and incorporated lies. Because of this I am in therapy dealing with flashbacks and my partner has applied to work in other universities. It is something that has drastically affected both of our lives and I really commend you for writing this.

    There are no homewreckers, only non-functioning relationships and transitions into new paths for all those involved.

    You're wonderful, Brit!

  17. moresexchocolateandredlipstick
    Posted January 11, 2010 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    I have always hated how the media have portrayed the whole Jennifer Aniston/Brad Pitt/Angelina Jolie scenario. I know that that is not the point of this post, really. But it drives me up the wall. Why do people hate Angelina when Brad is just as at fault. And why is Jennifer Aniston always portrayed as the Bridget Jones character, the perpetual singleton who can never hold down a man? Well, maybe they can't hold her down. That's always annoyed me.

    I've never really thought about this before, but it's such a horrible double standard. And I'm surprised men don't find it offensive either, this idea that they can't be trusted with a member of the opposite sex and are expected to jeopardise their primary relationship in that way – if I'd done that and people said 'I'm not surprised', I think I'd be a bit put out!

    —Amy xxxx

  18. alana
    Posted January 11, 2010 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

    I totally agree about the double standard, but I don’t think recognizing the double standard is the same as disregarding the responsibility we each have in our relationships. Even if a person is unhappy and wants to leave a relationship, cheating is never the answer (ending the relationship is).

    For me it’s simple, I won’t participate in actively hurting another person like that. That doesn’t mean I vilify anyone who does, but I personally can’t live with the thought that my selfishness is more important then someone else’s relationship. In regards to me cheating on my partner, I think the true act of loving a person is the day-in and day-out effort you make to love that person. (Love, for me, is something you do instead of just feel.) Sometimes you have to give up some of the things that make you happy in order to properly love a person (anyone with children knows exactly what I’m talking about). I know it sounds corny but I think too many people get into relationships when they’re not fully prepared to give that respect or willing to give up some of their selfishness. We can justify the things we do all day every day, but in the end that doesn’t make it right. Again I’m not condemning anyone or saying people have to live their life my way, this is just my personal opinion and the way I live my life.

  19. Britni TheVadgeWig
    Posted January 11, 2010 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

    Alana:

    Love, for me, is something you do instead of just feel.

    When things were confusing for me with The Bruiser and he was stringing me along, I was talking to a friend about it. I said, "He told me he loved me." Her response was, "Love is an action word."

    I gasped. It's really an amazing statement, in both it's simplicity and it's accuracy.

  20. theybelongtous
    Posted January 11, 2010 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    So I was a homewrecker, but now you are saying they don't exist? What?

    I agree, people who are not happy in their marriage look outside of it for things that make them happy. I also agree that all options should be looked at (counseling, divorce, working on communication, etc) before cheating is chosen as the answer.

    I also believe that a good portion of people will choose the "easy" way, instead of taking an actual look at the situation and deciding to do the right thing.

    Great post, Britni.

    peace…

  21. champagneandbenzedrine
    Posted January 11, 2010 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

    If a guy cheats on his wife (has an affair she's not aware of) than he's a douchebag. End of.

    If you have problems with your marriage, sort them out first (leave your spouse, or arrange some kind of 'open' relationship) and don't betray their trust by having sex with somebody else without them knowing.

    If the cheating husband still has sex with their wife (which most cheaters do, even though they might claim not to) it's not only an emotional betrayal, but exposes his spouse to sexually transmitted diseases (to a certain degree even if the 'cheater' uses protection.)

    It's totally disgusting behavior and shows total disrespect.

    As for the woman who has an affair with him. If she knows he's cheating on his wife, she KNOWS that he's a douchebag. If she's okay sleeping with a douchebag, that's fine. If he wasn't sleeping with her, he'd be sleeping with somebody else, so she's hardly contributing to the cheating.

  22. Garnet Joyce
    Posted January 11, 2010 at 7:31 pm | Permalink

    I gotta agree w sarahbear on what she said. Relationships, especially longterm marriages, can be really complicated and I feel like your arguments are ignoring that.

    As several have stated before me, its more complicated than the cheater not getting what they need at home. Why do we demand that our spouses provide everything we need anyways? Is that really fair to anyone? This can be with monogamy or non-monogamy. I feel like people expect their partners to fill every one of their needs when having friends, a shrink, or masturbating can go a long way to provide needs that aren't being met at home. Lying is never the answer to anything, but sometimes people are delusional and really think that nothing bad will happen.

    Also, surprised you didn't connect the "homewrecker" idea to rape culture given your theme lately. Men are never at fault for sex because they just can't control themselves. Women must be the keepers of virtue and the family.

  23. Amorous Rocker
    Posted January 11, 2010 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

    People don't only cheat because of what they're missing or not getting in a relationship. Some people cheat for the thrill of it. Some people cheat because they're not strong enough to resist the temptation of sex with someone else. There are a number of reasons someone may cheat on another and to say that they're only cheating because they don't have a happy relationship or because they're missing something is ridiculous honestly. I get that a lot of the time, they are looking for what they're not getting or looking because they're unhappy but please don't generalize and make it seem like that's the only reason.

    If there are problems in the marriage, fucking someone else on the side isn't the way to go. Reaching out and forming an emotional relationship with someone else isn't the way to go either. Work out your problems with your significant other or at least make an effort to. Maybe their wife/gf is a miserable shrew and makes their life hell. Maybe she's verbally abusive. Maybe she takes him for granted. Whatever it is that may be wrong in the relationship, it doesn't make it okay for the other person to cheat. If the issues can't be resolved or the person isn't even willing to try then move on. It sucks and it's hard but if you're cheating because you're miserable or just unhappy in the current relationship, why stay in it?

    "Homewrecker" is a ridiculous term, I agree. I know for a fact that not every "home" is already in trouble when someone cheats though. I know a lot of times that is the case.

    Yes, there is a big double standard, I agree on that too. Men who "wreck relationships" are "assholes", "pigs" or "douchebags" or any other derogatory name like that. They do get seen negatively but it's worse when it's a woman in the view of society. Which is complete bullshit because regardless of gender, it's still not right to cheat.

    I don't think it's accurate to assume that something is wrong/missing in the marriage/relationship just because a person is straying though. It's also ridiculous to not place any blame or responsibility on the man/woman that's helping the person cheat. They know what they're doing it wrong. They know that the person doing the cheating is wrong. They know that if they were in the shoes of the spouse that's being cheated on that they would be crushed and hurt too. To disregard that and say "I'm not hurting/ruining anything because what they're doing is more wrong" is selfish, in my opinion.

    And you're right when you say if not them, it would be someone else because that's true. If not you, then it would have been whomever the next willing participant would have been if that person was looking to cheat.

    I don't know about the celebrity dynamics you talked about here because I refuse to read celebrity gossip. I think society should pay more attention to their own lives and own problems instead of probing and focusing on the lives of celebrities. I get that they have their life on a very public display and sometimes it's amusing or heartbreaking to see the things they go through. It humanizes them in a way because most people hold them in a higher regard even though they're human like everyone else. I just don't care to follow anything that goes on in the lives of people I'll never meet so I have no opinion about that situation.

    Please don't feel like I'm attacking you or this post because that wasn't my intent at all. I respect your opinions and think you're a wonderful woman. If I come off harsh or rude at all, I apologize in advance because it wasn't meant that way at all. =)

  24. Rockin' With a Cock in
    Posted January 12, 2010 at 4:16 am | Permalink

    I'm not going to get all into everything here but this one part of C&B's comment just can't slide past me.

    "If he wasn't sleeping with her, he'd be sleeping with somebody else, so she's hardly contributing to the cheating."

    The "she" in these statements is an enabler, and in many other situations, an enabler does not remain blameless, so I don't see why that should change here.

  25. Andrea
    Posted January 12, 2010 at 8:21 am | Permalink

    If it wasn't that woman, it would have happened with another. Because affairs aren't about the person being cheated with; that person could be interchangeable. There's something else that the adulterer is getting from that extramarrital dalliance. A void they're filling. If their marriage was happy, they wouldn't cheat.

    I'm not sure if this has been covered or not, I skimmed. Lots of good conversation going on here.

    However, I have to disagree with this. It's just such a generalization and it doesn't take into account those attractions that occur between married persons that they weren't looking for. Humans are not always in control of who they are or are not attracted to, and while, yes, they are in control on how they proceed with that attraction…sometimes? Before you know it? An emotional affair is taking place and you're kinda left thinking "how did this happen?" And it's not so much that the parties would have had an affair with just anyone….the affair happened because of who they are and their attraction to one another. Not just because "My husband doesn't give me attention so I'm going to seek it out."

    But that's just my two cents.

    Good discussion.

  26. Saraid
    Posted January 12, 2010 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    "As for the woman who has an affair with him. If she knows he's cheating on his wife, she KNOWS that he's a douchebag. If she's okay sleeping with a douchebag, that's fine. If he wasn't sleeping with her, he'd be sleeping with somebody else, so she's hardly contributing to the cheating."

    I have to disagree with this. Not everyone who cheats does it because they just need someone to fuck, so the idea that the hypothetical man would be sleeping with someone else is a little insulting.

    I agree that ending the relationship is the thing to do, but it's not always that easy to do it. For some people it's a process that takes time and even though, yes, cheating makes a lot of people hurt, it doesn't always mean the person cheating is a "douche."

    My partner had a relationship with me (although not sexual) before his marriage ended. It took him a lot of time to even realize what was going on with his relationship and how to best go about ending it. I respect and understand that.

  27. goodgirl
    Posted January 21, 2010 at 9:21 pm | Permalink

    Britni,
    I believe that any one person who actively participates in an affair definitely contributes to the potential demise of said relationship.

    The gender of the person having the affair or being the recipient of the affair are acting in what I can only describe as unethical and immoral behaviours and I do believe both are accountable for their actions.

    Personally I believe any person who seeks a married individual to have an affair with is just as much of a negative force to relationships as the person who seeks those to have an affair with.

    With that said, we all make our own choices and have to live with them and although I do not agree nor respect those who participate in affairs, I do believe we all must learn from our own experiences.

    An interesting read.

    ~a

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    [...] and I were talking on a trip home recently. He brought up a conversation he had with someone about Britni’s home wrecker post and my response to it. The people he was talking to are actually in a relationship that spawned [...]

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