I had never really considered the topic of circumcision much, but really just knew that I hadn’t seen many uncircumcised penises (penii?), was raised in a Jewish house, and if (big if) I ever had a male child, I would probably circumcise him because it seemed like the thing that people did. Then The Promo Homo and another friend showed me Penn and Teller’s Bullshit! episode on circumcision and I changed my mind.
Monkey (who is very anti-circumcision) mentioned the episode on her blog yesterday, and I went on YouTube and re-watched it. And this time I decided that if (big if) I ever have a male child, I will definitely not circumcise him. Here are the videos, if you care to watch them.
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
So, after watching the video I was talking to my mom about it. I said, you know, I don’t think I would circumcise my baby. Just watching the little boys cry and scream when they got circumcised killed me (and made me cry!).
Mom: “Oh, please. There is nothing uglier than an uncircumcised thing. It’s gross.”
Me: “Mom, that’s what it’s supposed to look like.”
Mom: “Whatever. Then don’t ever let your baby get a shot or take them to the dentist or anything else if you can’t handle them crying.”
Me: “Mom, it was a different cry. It was a devastating sound.”
Mom: “Well, it’s a health risk.”
Me: “No, Mom, it isn’t. Also, this is 2008. It’s called hygiene.”
Mom: “Whatever. If you want your kid to have an ugly penis, do what you want. I refuse to talk about this. You can find propaganda to argue any point you want.”
I hate that people still think this way. It (to me) is no different than female circumcision in Africa, which we try to stop. It’s a purely a cultural thing. Most men in Europe are uncut, and there are no “health risks.” Why do so many people continue to look at things from such an ethnocentric point of view?
If the foreskin was not meant to be there, evolution would have done away with it already, especially with circumcision being as prevalent as it is. There is a reason that males are still born with foreskin.
As for my experience with cut and/or uncut men, I honestly haven’t really noticed a difference. But I have never dated an uncut guy. I have slept with (from what I know) 5 or so (totally a guess) guys who were uncircumcised, and most of the time I only knew because they told me either before or after the fact. But every man I have ever had a long term relationship with has been circumcised. However, it is a nonissue for me. I don’t find uncut guys more or less attractive, and it wouldn’t matter to me either way.
What do you guys think? Ladies, (and any queens out there) what do you prefer? Men, are you cut or uncut? And do you wish you were the other?
I'm Britni, a snarky bitch and generally awesome person. I write about sex, love, and bullshit. If sex-positivity, discussions about BDSM and kink, queer issues, and topics that are completely inappropriate by society's standards make you uncomfortable, then this blog is not for you.
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12 Comments
i *prefer* people to be intact – then they can decide when they are of an age to understand the consequences of their decisions, what they want on or off their body…
and as for your mom, i guess that means she wont be changing any diapers for you, huh? small price to pay for your childs self esteem…
as for the penii, it still matters what they do with what they have…although there is something about the intact penis that makes me incredibly happy…
peace…
I actually talked about this topic on my blog a loooong time ago and there were mixed results.
As a parent to a boy, I had him circumcised. I cried and cried when they took him away because I knew that he was going to be hurt. However, it was pain that he'll never remember and goes away relatively quick. The nurse took him away and 45 minutes later she brought him back and he was in good spirits like nothing ever happened. It healed quickly and from what I could tell when I would change his diapers and clean him, he wasn't in any pain.
I chose to spare him the embarrassment of being made fun of in the locker room. And that really does happen. One of my best guy friends in high school actually went through having a circumcision when he was 17 because he was tired of being embarrassed. The tormenting of the other boys actually gave him a terrible complex which caused him to have no confidence what so ever when it came to girls. The pain he suffered from having it done so late in life was insane. For weeks he walked around like he had a corn cob stuck in his ass. It was terrible.
I also chose to spare him any embarrassment that he might face with girls….waaaaaaaay down the road. Since circumcision is pretty much the "norm" in the U.S., I didn't want some girl looking at it and thinking something's wrong with it. Which I'm embarrassed to say is exactly what I thought the first time I saw one.
One a personal note, I completely prefer a cut penis over an uncut one when it comes to fucking and sucking. I've slept with 4-5 uncut guys myself, which is also just a guess. An uncut penis (to me) feels like having sex with a dick that's not fully hard. I guess the extra skin doesn't cause that friction with the vaginal wall that I like so much. I don't get that feeling of a nice hard cock sliding in and out of my vajay. As for sucking on one, I tried that one time and it smelled so disgusting that I vowed to never put another uncut dick in my mouth again. Which just sucks for any uncut guy that I'm with because I love to suck a dick. =)
I believe that it's really what the parent prefers is best for their child. If someone doesn't want to circumcise their child, then so be it. That's their choice. Just as it's my choice to circumcise my child. Based on the research I've done on circumcision, I don't believe male circumcision is as barbaric as female circumcision.
You bring up a very valid point. There are no health risks associated with having foreskin, which was such a big misconception for many years. As long as the guy washes it properly, there won't be any stink like the first (and only) one I put in my mouth.
And again I've written a novel for a comment. Sorry!!
You're absolutely right. Evolution would have just "done away" with it. Just like it did with your appendix. And wisdom teeth.
And how do you compare removing foreskin, a relatively harmless procedure with an extremely small chance of complications, with the mutilation and removal of female sex organs?
The Center For Disease Control says it helps prevent HIV/AIDS, and medical experts say it doesn't really make a damn bit of difference either way. I'm cut, but I've always been curios what it would be like to "pull up the hoodie"….
I have to say that I have no preference for circumcised or not–but an un-circumcised penis is mighty fun to play with when un-erect. Maybe to the man's chagrin.
(Oooh, look, I can tuck it inside itself!!!)
I honestly don't notice a sensation difference, save for the fact that the un-circumcised penis felt a bit more…slick–like the extra skin were providing another kind of texture? Perhaps it was all in my mind.
I had always been in the societal camp of, "Well, I guess I'll circumcise a boy if I have one," without thinking too much about it. As I reflected, however, (and after reading a few gruesome tales of botched circumcisions) the more it seemed like an unnecessary mutilation. Not that circumcised penises aren't fine if they're already that way–I just can't imagine doing that to my hypothetical baby boy.
I thought theybelongtous was way too harsh on April. What the fuck?! Lighten up and don't be such an asshole about it! But then I saw that's what his/her blog is dedicated to ("Just Say No – to RIC"), so I guess it's political.
Anyway, before I read that and got annoyed, I was going to thank our lovely and energetic hostess Britni for bringing this up. I hadn't seen the P&T episodes and they were very interesting and informative. Until now I thought the "Foreskin Restoration" movement was just among a small segment of gay men, but apparently that's not the case.
It's also good to hear alternative points of view on the health issues. Though, as is usually the case with TV, you're still getting somebody's agenda — it's difficult to find scientific objectivity. But just knowing that there's some controversy and alternatives out there is helpful.
I'm 54 with two boys, now grown into young men. My wife and I questioned whether to circumsize them, but at that time there was very little discussion of alternatives. My own thoughts included many of the same issues and questions that April raised (not the part about sucking dick) and we finally went ahead with it.
Nobody pressured us. The doctors may have mentioned that there was some equivocal evidence of possible health benefit but they made it clear that it was mostly a personal choice for cultural reasons.
And culture changes.
— I like the argument that young men can make their own choice if they want to.
— The no-cut partisans imply that those of us who are cut, and our partners, are missing a lot of sexual pleasure, and yet there's precious little evidence for that from what I can see.
— I hate some of the shrill language of the no-cut camp. Equating circumcision with female genital mutilation is absurd and thus does not enhance your position. You have other, much better arguments. No not the one about breast cancer, that's just stupid.
If I had it to do over again, here in 2008 and not 25 years ago, I would be more inclined to skip the circumcision, but I'm still not sure. It's certainly cleaner.
APRIL,Apollo Unchained: you may feel that theybelongtous was harsh on April, but it is something that she and her family are passionate about, and I would probably (and have probably) reacted the same way about topics that rub me a certain way. I reserve her right to state her opinion on my blog, and she asked permission before doing so. She also provided links to back up her arguments, and is clearly trying to educate and not just blindly yell things.
April, I completely understand your feelings, and if I had a child I'm sure the same feelings would come over me, and I would be forced to make the same decisions.
In general, we all want what is best for our children, ad we do what we think is best. We may all make different decisions when faced with the same scenario, but we all have our children's best interest at heart when we do decide, and that is what's most important.
In response to Theybelongtous:
"actually, safe sex prevents HIV/AIDS, not cutting skin off of a baby boy…"
Right, it does. But, as I said, the CDC studies show circumcision helps as well.
As for the link you provided about the effects..well, I think you could have found better information to support your case. I mean, look at this qoute:
"Circumcised Coronal Hook Pulls Out Vaginal Lubrication"
Why yes, it does! Robin Baker, an evolutionary biologist, points out in his book "Sperm Wars" that "scooping" is exactly what the coronal ridge is designed to do. While I can't link to the book passage itself, here is further reading on the subject (although I strongly suggest reading the book):
Article
theybelongtous: I appreciate your opinion and comment. I would like respond to some of the things you said.
In reference to my son not being in any pain you said, "…, but its been proven that circumcision causes pain to the child, as well as causes them to withdraw from his environment and it interferes with the process of bonding and breastfeeding…"
I didn't say that it didn't cause him *any* pain. I said that after the procedure when I would change his diapers and clean him, he didn't appear to be in pain. Meaning he didn't cry or wince or move or do anything that a baby does when you touch something that hurts them. I cannot speak for all children, but for my son, it did not cause him to withdrawal from his environment and it certainly didn't interfere with the process of bonding or breastfeeding.
As for men remembering the pain of their circumcision….I'm sure if a poll was done, there would be a very very small percentage of men that could tell you they truly remember that pain.
In reference to my friend in high school, this was in 1995. He was very much educated on what he had because his parents were very much pro-foreskin. He definitely weighed out the pros & cons, but to him he felt the right thing to do was to have it cut. We remained good friends for 5 years after that and he seemed really happy with his decision. I wish I could call him up now and ask him to weigh in on this discussion, but unfortunately he died in a car accident in 2000.
You said, "..doesnt seem like a good plan to change everything about our kids and lives just because they might get teased at school…"
Removing a foreskin is hardly changing everything about our kids. And as you mentioned in this same paragraph, kids do get picked on for all sorts of things. That tormenting weighs very heavily on a lot of kids who are still in a very vulnerable stage of their life. Many kids take that with them into their adulthood and have deep seeded issues because of it. I don't have a lot of time to do research to send you links, but I'm sure you can find a lot about it all over the web. I know I learned a lot about how adults are effected by their self image as a child when I took psychology in college.
Regarding circumcision being the "norm". The first link and percentage was for the entire world, which as we know much of Europe doesn't circumcise their children. And after looking at the other link, I guess using the them "the norm" was inappropriate. I should've said the majority. Which is correct.
Yes, I was uneducated about uncircumcised penises (penii as Britni said) because a) they obviously didn't show us in school what the different ones looked like and b) I had never seen one before.
I'd like to address the common denominators topic, but I've not had time to read the link you wrote. Sorry. However, from things I've read in the past, a lot of women being circumcised are having it happen to them when they're not an infant. They're being taken away kicking and screaming and even beaten. That's not how it's done here to infant boys.
Again, thank you for weighing in and providing lots of information. I have to admit that I do not regret one bit circumcising my son and if (big if) I ever have another boy, I'd circumcise him too. That's my choice and it should be respected. Just as I respect yours not to circumcise your child.
Britni, I apologize for ragging on theybelongtous. I hadn't caught on to the relationship, which puts things in a wholly different light. Certainly with your support there's nothing wrong with their post.
I'm a straight female married to an intact (not circumcised) man. Both my husband and I are extremely grateful to my in-laws for leaving his penis the way it came. We were in high school in the late 90s and nobody ever was teased in the locker room at all. One of my (gay) friends did say that he noticed a noticeable size difference between circumcised and intact penises and that he wished his parents had not had his cut.
I also have a friend who was intact and chose to be circumcised at 19 or 20 years old. He doesn't remember the procedure due to general anesthesia, he had plenty of pain meds for the recovery time, and even though he chose to be circumcised he's still thankful that his parents left this very personal decision up to him – since it is HIS penis, after all.
None of my friends have circumcised their sons and their sons are all just fine. If I'm ever blessed with a son he will also be left intact.
As for the HIV "protection" – if we assume that the 60% protective rate is accurate, circumcision only protects about as well as a cheap condom that beaks almost half the time. That's not nearly a good enough health guarantee for me to put a child through an unnecessary cosmetic surgery that can result in disfigurement or even death in rare cases.
One note about the common argument about "matching" daddy's penis – my husband's father is circumcised and my husband is very grateful that his circumcision status doesn't "match" his father's. He just assumed as a young boy that his father kept his foreskin pulled back all the time and was appalled when he learned that it had actually been lopped off.
Therefore I don't think a boy should be circumcised without his consent or a clear, immediate medical reason even if his father is circumcised. We generally want better for our children than what we had/have. Why should this desire not be true as far as the penis goes as well? We do not argue to amputate any other part of the body so that the child will "match" a parent.
Thank you for your thoughtful post!
Thanks for posting about this Brit!
OBVIOUSLY you know how I feel about this, but it was interesting to read the responses you got. I don't think people knew they cared so much about the topic until it's brought up (which isn't brought up often enough).
In other news: I MISS YOU.
April: "I believe that it's really what the parent prefers is best for their child. If someone doesn't want to circumcise their child, then so be it. That's their choice. Just as it's my choice to circumcise my child."
And what about HIS choice? Whose body? Whose rights? (And don't compare it to vaccination or something else that doesn't permanently remove tissue. Vaccination takes away his choice to have whooping cough? Yeah.)
cw: "Evolution would have just "done away" with it. Just like it did with your appendix. And wisdom teeth." We now know that the appendix has an immunological function, and some people have functional wisdom teeth. Others' give no trouble. We take out wisdom teeth when the get impacted, not at birth.
As for the eternal comparison with FGM, Male Genital Cutting is neither wholy like or wholy unlike FGM: where it IS very similar is (un)ethically, as a human rights violation.
He forgets the pain? You'd scream your head off if we said that to excuse drug rape (with a condom).
Sexual pleasure: the famous studies, such as Masters & Johnson, that claim to find no difference, didn't look at the foreskin. One that did, by Sorrells et al. found "circumcision removes the most sensitive part of the penis" (and don't say "If I were any more sensitive I'd have a heart attack" because the cardiac wards of Europe, Scandinavia, Asia, South America and the rest of the English-speaking world are not full of intact men dying of pleasure). More sensitivity means more control.